S02E17 - InnovaterHERS: A Chat with the Authors | Dr. Barbara Kurshan & Laura Smulian

In this episode of Build Momentum, we are joined by Dr. Barbara Kurshan and Laura Smulian.  Dr. Barbara "Bobbi" Kurshan is the president of Educorp Consultants Corporation and senior fellow and innovation advisor of the Graduate School of Education at the University of Pennsylvania, and a former education industry entrepreneur who has more than 40 years of experience in education, including developing the first children's software products for Microsoft. 

Laura Smulian is a writer, an editor, and an award-winning learning designer who spent the past seven years building out operations for quickly growing edtech startups in Latin America. She also launched a venture called the E-Ship Bootcamp, a four-week program that takes teams of students through the process of building their own startup from zero to launch.

Some Questions I Ask:

• How did the InnovateHer project come together? (2:19)
• What do you want potential and future innovators to achieve through this book? (4:07)
• How do you describe the benchmark for entrepreneurial mindset throughout the book? (5:03)
• Would you share a snapshot of some of the people you included in the book? (21:40)
• What would you love to see women pursue to embark on their careers as purposeful innovators after reading the book? (23:30)

In This Episode, You Will Learn:

• The beginning of InnovateHers (2:26)
• Key takeaways from reading the book (4:19)
• About the “Entrepreneurial Mindset Profile” (5:22)
• The story of innovator Lisa Hall (21:53)
• Actions to be taken after reading the book to be a purposeful innovator (23:46)

Quotes:

“I wanted them to see that the stories were personal, that they could do it too, and that there were certain things they needed to be aware of along the way so they wouldn't have the traps that women have had in the past.”

“I'd like to see [people] share the book with young innovators. I think it's a great gift to give to somebody that you're mentoring. The other thing I want to see them do with it is to share their story. I'd like to build a community of people that are sharing their stories so people understand that we're all not that different, but we can learn from our entrepreneurial mindset.”

“There's no one right way to rise to the top. It has nothing to do with external indicators and checking off boxes, but rather traits and skills that are powerful that we can build and work to leverage in order to rise to the top. There's not a formula for this; everyone was a little different.”

Connect with InnovateHer:
InnovateHer website
Dr. Barbara Kurshan's LinkedIn
Laura Smulian’s LinkedIn

Stay in touch with Sarah Williamson:
Free Case Study Guide
SWPR GROUP Website
LinkedIn

Stay in touch with Chad Bolser:
LinkedIn

About "The Secret to Transformational Leadership," which Sarah co-authored with Dr. Quintin Shepherd:
Transformational Leadership Secret website
Purchase the print or ebook

Transcript

Sarah Williamson: 0:02

Hello and welcome to build momentum where we help education organizations blow past their competitors with strategies that make an impact. We think beyond traditional press releases and generic communication tactics, and seek out big, bold ideas to create meaningful results for our clients. I'm your host, Sarah Williamson. And I've spent more than 15 years in public relations for the education sector, where our team has learned what works and what doesn't when it comes to PR from launching groundbreaking new industry awards to landing sought after panels at the most prestigious shows. We absolutely love this stuff. But the best part is, we have an opportunity to interview some of the smartest people we know who share their knowledge and strategies for success right here on the show. If you enjoy what you hear, we would so appreciate it you please take a moment to drop us a review on whatever platform you listen. And if you want to learn more about us, visit SW PR dash group.com. Thanks so much for tuning in today. Let's dive into the show. On today's episode, we're welcomed by a couple of guests to announce their new book InnovateHers. Dr. Barbara"Bobbi" Kurshan is the president of Educorp Consultants Corporation and senior innovation advisor of the Graduate School of Education Entrepreneurship at the University of Pennsylvania, and a former education industry entrepreneur. She has more than 40 years of experience in education, including developing the first children's software products for Microsoft. Welcome, Bobbi.

Bobbi Kurshan: 1:36

Thank you.

Sarah Williamson: 1:37

Laura Smulian is a writer and editor and an award winning learning designer. And she spent the past seven years building out operations for quickly growing edtech startups in Latin America. She also launched a venture called the E ship bootcamp, a four week program that takes teams through the process of building your own startup from zero to launch. That is so cool. Welcome, Laura.

Laura Smulian: 1:55

Thank you, Sarah.

Sarah Williamson: 1:56

It's so great to have both of you on the show today. I have so many questions which I sent you over the questions. And I think you both probably thought, wow, there's no way we can get through this in 30 minutes. But let's try I want to dive in. So it's so exciting to finish the book. So congratulations. I know you've been working on this for quite some time.

Bobbi Kurshan: 2:12

Yes.

Sarah Williamson: 2:13

I think, Bobbi, we talked about it. I think you were on my show year ago, February or a year ago in a couple of months.

Bobbi Kurshan: 2:19

Right

Sarah Williamson: 2:19

But yeah, you were just kind of getting a lot of the interviews done at that point, tell me about how this project came together.

Bobbi Kurshan: 2:26

I've been thinking about writing this book for a long time, because my research has been centered at around entrepreneurial mindset at the University of Pennsylvania. And I've been looking at entrepreneurs for even longer within that. And I've written a lot of academic books, and I've designed educational products. But I really wanted to write a book that was more of a stories that told the stories of entrepreneurs, and how they had succeeded and what made them rise to the top. But I wanted to be sure that the book included the research. And I spent a long time and Laura, thank you, thankfully helped us to figure out how to present it. But I wanted to include the data, but I didn't want it to be an academic book. And so that's how we got started. And we decided to weave the data in around the stories.

Sarah Williamson: 3:14

And you did it beautifully. I mean, it really reads like a novel almost. And I love I love the stories. There's so many great stories in this book. And Laura, the value of an amazing editor. Really, you can't put a price tag on that. I mean, it's powerful when someone can articulate the narrative in a way that you haven't considered or just pulled all the resources together in a thoughtful and cohesive way. I'm sure we had an amazing editor for our book, too. And it's a powerful resource. So you did a beautiful job.

Laura Smulian: 3:43

Thank you. Thank you. It was you know, Kathy, and Bobbi's conversations with the 27 Women were so enriching. And I felt like it was almost mentoring, just the process of editing all of them and getting all of the insights. It was incredible. Plus, weaving it into the research that Bobbi had done, it was so interesting to watch the trends sort of come alive and connect the dots between all the different points. It was a really interesting process.

Sarah Williamson: 4:07

That's incredible. So when you were thinking about the purpose of this book, Bobby, what do you want people to walk away with specially potential and future innovators? What do you want them to achieve through this book?

Bobbi Kurshan: 4:19

That's a really important question. And the reason for writing the book and what we want people to get out of it was to see that we could find all people from all parts of the world, from diverse groups from different age groups. And we could find themes that ran through that helped them rise to the top and succeed. And so what I wanted the people reading the book, whether it be young entrepreneurs or women at the top or men, mentoring women or men thinking about how they will grow their organizations with women that do rise to the top. I wanted them to see that the stories were personal, and I wanted them to see that they could do that too, and that there were certain things that they needed to be aware of along the way, that they wouldn't have the traps that women have had in the past.

Sarah Williamson: 5:03

Yeah, I love that. So I love that you also use the entrepreneurial mindset throughout the book. And you've referenced that as your measurement benchmark. tell our listeners what the entrepreneurial mindset is. And how you use that to, I don't know, is it measure, evaluate, consider what metric How do you describe that

Bobbi Kurshan: 5:22

Maybe captures all of the above. And I'm gonna let Laura talk about it in a minute. But I think the reason I looked at entrepreneurial mindset is I've been educating entrepreneurs for a long time, and funding entrepreneurs and being an entrepreneur. And I wanted a way to evaluate their skills and their traits. And we looked at many profiles over the years in many ways to evaluate entrepreneurial mindset, and came across the one that we use the Entrepreneurial Mindset Profile, we came across that when I was doing research about how would I evaluate innovation. And how would I evaluate mindset. And it was sort of during the growth of the work about growth mindset that was being done by Angela Duckworth and Carol Dweck, at Stanford, and I decided that this was a profile that makes sense to be able to look at. And we have lots of baseline data, Eckerd College, where the EMP was from had given this profile to over hundreds of 1000s of people, entrepreneurs, not just women, men and women. And so I just thought it was a good profile to use. And we began to look at the data. And that's where Laura came in. I asked her to kind of dissect the data, and she can explain that.

Laura Smulian: 6:36

So with entrepreneurial mindset, specifically, you know, it's interesting, I've been working in this area for seven, eight years. And there's sort of this fundamental question, right? are entrepreneurs born or made? And can you really form someone into an entrepreneur? I've been thinking about this in the context of my work very on the ground, and specifically in Latin America, Bobbi's been thinking about it from the ivory tower at Penn. And together, so when we, you know, had our first conversation about what she was looking at, we were talking about this fundamental question, you just said, you know, it's interesting, I'm asking the same question to so many entrepreneurs, and entrepreneurial leaders. So that includes intrapreneurs, and people leading initiatives within larger corporations. So what essentially this Entrepreneurial Mindset Profile, which is what we based a lot of the data off of what they say, is there two facets of entrepreneurial mindset. There's one, that's, you know, you're kind of born with these traits, and they call them personality traits, or they're formed very early on. So those are things that are really fundamental to our identity, like, you know, the need to achieve, right, so aiming for the top risk taking how much of a risk taker are you? Passion? Do you live with passion, not just finding a passion, like as a specific thing, but passion is a way of approaching life. So those are really intrinsic to who we are. And then there's another set of what they EMP folks call skills. And so those are skills that we build throughout the course of our career. And so those are more flexible, and they're kind of in flux, you know, essentially, we build them as we overcome challenges. And you know, as we get out into the professional world, and especially, you know, in the entrepreneur world, you know, as we're iterating, and building new products, and things like that. So these are the skills that we build in that process. So entrepreneurial mindset is a combination of these two things, who we are as people, our personality traits and skills we built along the way to innovating or creating whatever it is that we're doing.

Bobbi Kurshan: 8:30

And looking at that we looked at three levels, as we describe in the second chapter of the book. But we looked at three sort of groups of this, we looked at the large baseline group of the 200,000 people that had taken it. Then we looked at a subset of that group of the 250 of the students that had gone through our master's program or had gone through our incubator at Penn. And then we began to see some themes, and we pulled out the women in the subset. And then we get to see some amazing trends. And that's where we picked up on writing the book around the four chapters in the middle, that talked about before yours that we concentrated on. And we learned a couple of really interesting things. We learned that women are, as all entrepreneurs are, they're risk takers, but they are calculated risk takers, they're much more thoughtful about the risks. They look at data more carefully. They tend to be not necessarily slower but more conscious about the decision making that they make to take risk. We also found out that they were clearly had high self confidence. Again, leadership and entrepreneurial leaders and entrepreneurs all have self confidence. It wouldn't be crazy enough to become an entrepreneur to think out of the box. But we found that the people in our study and the women in our data were while they had high self confidence. They had tended to have more of imposter syndrome. When men did, they thought that they shouldn't be in the room, even though they had high self confidence. Even though they understood risk, they often were in situations where they felt like they were not the right person in the room or the right person to do it. They've overcome that. And we talked about that in the last part of the book. And then the third thing that I found, probably the one I really pushed for, because as I was looking at the data was that they tend to have a much higher interpersonal sensitivity scale of profile, which we defined as empathy. The EMP, while they tested for that skill or evaluated that skill, they didn't consider that part of their skill set we do. We think it's a very important one. And we looked at that in great detail. And what we found, which I love, we found that because of this high empathy scale, they tend to be more collaborative leaders, they tend to be able to bring together better teams, and their teams stay together with them longer. And one of the stories somebody referred to that they tend to be able to fire people in a more empathetic way. So if you're going to be fired in an organization, you want to be fired by a woman, usually not by a man.

Sarah Williamson: 11:13

Oh, I love that. That's great.

Bobbi Kurshan: 11:15

And I think there's a lot of talk about the other surprise, we found, but we did find one other surprise around need to achieve. So we're going to talk about that.

Sarah Williamson: 11:24

Yes, I want to dig into that one. I'm very curious about that one.

Laura Smulian: 11:27

So really fascinating, right? So we have this group of 27-29 women, including Bobbi and Kathy, who are just, you know, like rock stars in every sense of the word, right? You know, they're leading organizations, they're doing amazing things. They've got 1000s of followers on Twitter, you know, whatever, they're doing really, really cool things, you know, getting into the conversation, you you naturally assume, okay, you know, they're overachievers, right, like fishes who they want to really achieve in their career, they want to get ahead, etc, etc. And actually, so in the data, and the three data sets that Bobby was referring to the second one, the research that she did at Penn, we found that need to achieve was the most important entrepreneurial characteristic for purpose driven leaders, specifically for women, it was much higher for women than it was for men that kind of need to do everything, like at the top top level, and really work with excellence. So this was our finding in the profile. And so we naturally assumed it would be a part of the conversations. But every time that Bobbi and Kathy, you know, sort of suggested you know, okay, talk to me a little was this always your goal? Is this what you want to do? We've been would sort of, they would not avoid the topic, but they would change it, shift the lens and say, I just really wanted to make a positive impact for others, I just really wanted to do well for the world, sort of erasing themselves from the equation almost really interesting. And so we kind of dug deeper into that Bobbi and Kathy did a great job in the interviews, kind of trying to get around it, and eventually landed on this idea of doing well for the world and doing well for yourself, too. And that was sort of it was almost easier for the women to speak about that. Right. So okay, yes, we know that they're higher achievers, right, because they talk about, they're so proud of what their organizations have achieved when they're at the helm. They're so proud of the results, they've been able to generate their bottom line. But you know, okay, so that's great. And what about you? So then, after that sort of segue and being able to say on No, like, it's been really great for me to I've, you know, I've really enjoyed the process. I think I've grown as a person, but also, you know, I feel glad that I've been able to have the opportunity to be able to lead this organization, no one ever talked about it of like, I want to be the CEO of this organization, do you not I mean, it was sort of it had to be hauled out throughout the conversation really interesting.

Sarah Williamson: 13:43

It is so fascinating.

Bobbi Kurshan: 13:45

It's fascinating, what we saw in the area that you actually put this on, one of the things you wanted to talk about, was we also have a full chapter in the book around mentors and mentorship. And we find that men rise to the top because of their mentors, or because somebody takes them under their wing and brings them up. Women in general have people that they consider role models, but they're not as comfortable finding mentors are identifying mentors as men, these women that did rise to the top all had mentors, and they spoke glowingly about them, and they spoke about why they were their mentors. And so we decided we dig deeper into how we can help women understand the role that mentors can play and how to involve yourself with a mentor and identify mentors. And we give a, you know, some background on that. But one of the interesting things we found and looking at the mentors was when we asked the women that we interviewed, whether their mother or their father was their role model and mentor. We found that almost to the 100% of them said their mother had been their mentor, rather than their father, although they did speak about their father and they often said they saw their father as a role model and he'd been, you know, successful. But they identified their mother. But taking that one step further, in many cases, these were in families where the mother was they were from lower income families from diverse backgrounds. And the mother was not the one who was out there working and she was taking care of the family keeping them together. In many cases, she wasn't pursuing a career so much as having multiple jobs, just to keep the family stable. And they still saw that as their mother being a mentor, they could identify how important that was to how they had risen to the top.

Sarah Williamson: 15:33

Oh, that's incredible. If you're anything like us, most likely who have felt overwhelmed by the number of leadership books sitting on your shelf, just waiting for the perfect moment to be cracked open. But as we've all witnessed over the past two years, many of the traditional pillars of leadership are starting to crumble around us. That's why together with Dr. Quintin Shepherd, a superintendent from Victoria Independent School District, in Victoria, Texas, we decided to write our own leadership book, we're excited to share that the secret to transformational leadership, which offers practical advice for changemakers. In any industry, at any level, who are ready to learn a new language of leadership is now available. Throughout the book, we share stories of leaders who are on their journey toward Compassionate Leadership, and the many lessons they've learned along the way. By celebrating and empowering those around us, we create a ripple effect of empathy, kindness, and a sense of purpose for our life's work. We hope you'll join us on this journey. The book is available now on Amazon and at transformationalleadershipsecret.com. So, one other thing I wanted to hit on before we move on from the kind of the skills and the traits that you talked about. But you talked about some of these innovators really considered when they're hiring people. I mean, we're in the great resignations. So who isn't hiring right now, when they're hiring leaders within their company, how they found that these traits, these entrepreneurial skills, and traits tend to be much more important than someone's GPA or the right degree, or the perfect experience.

Laura Smulian: 17:14

So one of the things in the self evaluation card that Bobbi and Kathy said to the women who were interviewed, they asked the women to evaluate their own entrepreneurial mindsets. But they also ask them to evaluate the entrepreneurial mindset that their teams, so we have some data, we don't go so much into this in the book, because the book is mostly focused on the women that were interviewed. But it's really interesting. And, you know, we can dive more into this, if, you know, I think it's super relevant. And given the great resignation, like you mentioned, the value different characteristics in their team. And so they definitely value that balance. And so Bobbi was talking about having a high self confidence and how important that was the women who really leaned into their teams and said, Okay, I'm gonna hire, you know, I know that I don't have a strong future focus, right. So you know, it's hard for me to project out from zero to five years, I'm more of a doer, I like to jump into action. So my team needs to have that future focus. So the women that had the highest self confidence could really balance their skills, the women who, you know, said, Okay, I really struggled from imposter syndrome, or, you know, self confidence has been a struggle for me to build, you know, they valued different skills in their teams, which is really interesting. So they definitely valued empathy. They valued other traits, idea generation, so like the ability to like brainstorm, more so than the traits that were opposite of theirs. They look to the same traits in their teams,

Bobbi Kurshan: 18:38

A lot of the women that we interviewed, and we asked to fill out this self assessment of their entrepreneurial mindset. And as Laura said, we asked them to look at their strengths and weaknesses, as well as their team's strengths and weaknesses. As related to the EMP skills and traits, we found that many of them were surprised with what they answered. So we would have them say, Gosh, when I went to fill this out until I saw these lists of you know, and definitions which we gave them, they pick things that they said they wouldn't have normally have selected. And as Laura said, when they evaluated for their team, were more conscious of the fact of what they thought their team's weak. This was of a skill that they never maybe previously had identified. But now looking at it in juxtaposition of their skills and traits, they were very conscious of how that would help them rise to the top and help their team rise to the top.

Sarah Williamson: 21:17

Yeah, I mean, I think as leaders, we definitely have to look at where we have gaps. And I definitely try to hire for those gaps. And so it's so important to actually see that on paper too. I bet that was fascinating for some of those women

Laura Smulian: 21:30

And that requires a high level of self confidence, right and self awareness to I mean, beyond just entrepreneurial mindset, being able to say, Okay, this is where I have gaps. Let's get someone in there who's going to be able to like, you know, just really do an amazing job at this Quality and we're gonna complement each other. And then we're going to be able to, you know, bring our business to the next level to

Sarah Williamson: 21:50

Yeah,

Bobbi Kurshan: 21:50

I think one of the other fun things we found in the book. And it was, as we were sharing the stories that we wrote back to the people that we interviewed, because we wanted to make sure we had their stories, right, even though we had recorded them. And we were often taking quotes directly from the women. They were surprised at how they had said things in their stories about their skills. And then when they read it back, they came back said, I didn't say that. And it was funny, because it wasn't as if we were taking notes. And we literally had it in recording. And we would say, No, you did, and they'd say, Well, I didn't think about it that way. So they were re evaluating things that they had not thought about. And when they actually saw us tell their story. Many of them wrote back and said, This is amazing. This, I really didn't ever see myself this way. But the story tells it perfectly. And many of them would say, Well, I didn't really see myself that way. And then we would go back and say, well, here's where it was in context. And then they would say, oh, yeah, you know, that kind of thing. So it was a very interesting, we had one particular one around empathy, even though she clearly said several times in the interview, that she didn't think of herself as being empathetic. She then came back when she read her story and said, Well, I am empathetic, and here's the things I do. And she said, but I guess I never call them empathetic. So that's why when you were interviewing me, it came out as if I didn't see myself as being empathetic. She was fine when we kind of adjusted the story to reflect that. But it was very interesting that they often even though they said it didn't see themselves the way they described themselves.

Sarah Williamson: 23:24

Isn't that funny? That's what's so fascinating about having someone else capture these stories and share them back. I love that. So these are powerful innovators, would you be able to share just a snapshot of some of the people

Bobbi Kurshan: 23:36

Yeah, I'm gonna read. I really do like this one you included? story. And I'll just take it I actually used to hold on, let me find it. And her name is Lisa Hall. And Lisa has a fascinating background. And she then basically ran Calvert fund here in DC. She then went over to Europe and ran the education for the largest family foundation in Europe. And she is fascinating. And now she runs the Apollo social impact. But what I really liked about her story, and I'm just going to read a couple of sentences from it. The ultimate success her father would say is serving others, though they never pushed her in one direction or the other. They always gently reminded her that to be successful. She had to lift others up alongside, beside her. But finding the balance between doing good and doing well was not easy. Lisa made the decision to do well, when she went to the University of Pennsylvania as Wharton undergraduate. And when she graduated, she said, I hit the jackpot for the first job. Here was this work that made money was business oriented, finance, oriented, and serve the common good, because it produced affordable housing. And I had a series of jobs along the way that really did that. So she clearly understood she wanted to do well and do good. And she's got a fascinating story. The rest of it's a beautiful story, too. But we have lots of stories like that. Included in the book are people from India, from South Africa, from Colombia, from Tanzania,

Sarah Williamson: 25:14

so many great stories. Okay, after completing this book, and let's say someone who is aspiring innovator picks it up, what action do you think that they should take after they read this book? What would you love to see them pursue to embark on their career of a purposeful, innovative innovator?

Bobbi Kurshan: 25:30

Well, I'd like to see them share the book with young innovators, if they're mentoring, I think it's a great gift to give to somebody that you're mentoring. I think the other thing I want to see them do with it is share their story. So on our website at innovatehers.org, you can go on and share your story. And I'd like to build a community of people that are sharing their stories. So people understand that we're all not that different, but we can learn from our entrepreneurial mindset.

Sarah Williamson: 25:59

Oh, that's great.

Bobbi Kurshan: 26:00

Yeah Laura probably has a great thing to add also.

Sarah Williamson: 26:03

Yeah, Laura, anything.

Laura Smulian: 26:04

So I've learned so much from working so closely with Bobbi and Kathy. And I think one of my biggest takeaways from writing and working on the book is, there's no one right way to rise to the top. So it has nothing to do with external indicators, checking off boxes, but rather we all have traits and skills that are powerful that we can build and work to leverage in order to rise to the top. There's not a formula for this, everyone was a little different. And I just thought it was really amazing to recognize and lift up some of the skills that have traditionally maybe not been seen as leadership skills, right? I mean, we know Most leadership positions are held by men still, to this day in every sector, there's not an exception to that. Education is the closest that it's getting to having a majority of women, but we're only at 31% of women CEOs still. So we've got a long way to go. And I think that some of these traits, you know, calculated risks taking, you know, we're not whatever Elon Musk is doing right now, with Twitter, you know, we're not playing those kinds of games, right? We're managing things differently, right? We're managing things differently. And the more that we can visualize and see these stories, the more the more that we can recognize that there's more than one way to be successful in your career and to do well and do good at the same time. So that would be my hope for any innovator picking up the book, no matter what age you are, where you're at, in your career,

Bobbi Kurshan: 27:33

We've had a lot of men that are in the field in the purpose driven organizations tell us that they have daughters, and they're going to give it to their daughters. I think that I just hope that people share, share the book. And I just love that it's a storytelling book and not an academic book. I think we have a lot of books in there, you know, people like that, that you can look at the data in this book, but the data doesn't overwhelm you. The stories are what make you have the compassion and understanding when you finish the book.

Sarah Williamson: 28:04

I totally agree. I love it. So I know you mentioned your website when you tell us that website again.

Bobbi Kurshan: 28:10

Yes, it's innovatehers.org.

Sarah Williamson: 28:13

H-E-R-S.org Yes, perfect. And where can our listeners connect with both of you?

Bobbi Kurshan: 28:20

Well, you can connect with us on our website. You can connect with us when you purchase the book, all the connection on Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. So we have all of that the books are being released on the 21st. And you can go on and download the e book at the beginning and purchase or preorder the hardback or the paperback.

Sarah Williamson: 28:43

Thank you so much. You too, for joining us. This is it's been a true honor to have you back and I'm so excited about your project. Congratulations.

Bobbi Kurshan: 28:50

Thank you for having us.

Laura Smulian: 28:51

Thank you so much.

Sarah Williamson: 28:53

Thanks so much for tuning in today. If you enjoyed the show, if you wouldn't mind leaving a review, we'd be so grateful. This helps other listeners find and learn about our show. And please reach out if you're interested in learning more about how we can elevate the leaders of your organization with our PR services. If you'd like you can even shoot me a direct email at Sarah sarah@swpr-group.com. I look forward to hearing from you and we will see you next time.