S04E07 - The Big Blur | Joel Vargas, Vice President, Jobs for the Future

In this episode of Build Momentum, we are joined by Joel Vargas of Jobs for the Future, a nonprofit  that focuses on strategies to transform education and workforce systems. Vargas is vice president of JFF’s Education practice, which supports systems change in the education ecosystem, influences policies that promote diverse pathways, and identifies and applies data-informed, learner-centered solutions. Before joining JFF, Vargas directed, initiated, and studied programs designed to help students from populations underrepresented in post-secondary education enter and complete college.

Some Questions I Ask:

• Tell us more about Jobs for the Future. (01:18)
• How have you seen districts prioritize workforce development? (03:43)
• How are effective are educators at transmitting this shift to students and parents? (06:56)
• What’s The Big Blur and what impact is it having? (11:08)
• Is there an increase in public-private partnership in terms of workforce development? (16:37)
• What are some successful funding strategies for district partnerships? (20:20)
• How do you feel about AI? (22:29)
• Tell us more about how you share your success stories across the education community? (25:15)
• What are you most hopeful about for the future of workforce development? (27:20)

In This Episode, You Will Learn:

• All about Jobs for the Future (01:30)
• Joel’s thoughts on districts prioritizing workforce development (04:05)
• How this shift in priorities is transmitted to students and parents (07:37)
• The Big Blur as a principle for organizing older adolescents’ learning (11:20)
• Public-private partnerships in workforce development (17:07)
• Funding strategies for district partnerships (20:35)
• Joel’s thoughts about AI (22:50)
• Tips for sharing successful stories across the education community (25:33)
• Joel’s hopes for the future of workforce development (27:27)

Quotes:

“We really think we need the ‘power of us’ in this day and age—and frankly, in this political climate—to get some of these things done. So we're going to have an explicit focus on policy.

“Young people have to start working earlier, out of necessity. And our systems don't support learning and working at the same time. So we said, ‘What we need to do is blur all the systems.’”

“Our Pathways to Prosperity network just celebrated 10 years. We've worked with well over 30 communities, states, and regions over the last 10 years to advance these kinds of college and career pathways.”

Stay in touch with Jobs for the Future:
Website
Email: jvargas@jff.org

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Stay in touch with Chad Bolser:
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About "The Secret to Transformational Leadership," which Sarah co-authored with Dr. Quintin Shepherd:
Transformational Leadership Secret website
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Transcript

Sarah Williamson: 0:05

Hello and welcome to Build Momentum, a Podcast where we explore thought leadership and education. I'm Sarah Williamson, the founder of SW PR group.

Chad Bolser: 0:13

And I'm Chad Bolser Chancellor Ivy Tech Community College in Richmond, Indiana. This season, we will launch a series exploring global workforce development and K 12 school districts and the leaders who are bringing this work to light.

Sarah Williamson: 0:29

We hear from CTE directors, superintendents and thought leaders on the topic of workforce development, how it shifted throughout the last several years, who is employing strategies that are making an impact and how they're sharing those stories with the broader education community. We explore how to leverage key partners, your constituents and the media to authentically impact your organization and the leaders who champion them. We can't wait to get started. So let's dive in.

Chad Bolser: 0:56

Welcome, everybody to Build Momentum. And on today's episode, we are thrilled to have Joel Vargas, Vice President for jobs for the future with us to continue our exploration into K 12 workforce development. Welcome to Build Momentum. Joel.

Joel Vargas: 1:16

Thanks, Chad. Thanks, Sarah. Great to be here.

Sarah Williamson: 1:18

Thanks for joining us, this is going to be a good one. Joel, would you mind kicking us off by sharing more about Jobs for the Future. And particularly, we're very interested to learn how you support K 12. Students

Joel Vargas: 1:22

Sure happy to share more Jobs for the Future. We also go by JFF is a nonprofit organization with a national focus over 40 years old, we just celebrated our 40th, late last year. And our work has, throughout that time always been about strategies to transform our education and workforce system so that everyone gets the skills and credentials they need to advance economically. Recently, we established a 10 year Northstar, which is that we want to see 75 million people who face systemic barriers working in good jobs. And so that's a big bold number. We do our work by designing and testing strategies with education system leaders, policymakers foundations around the country, we then try to scale up what works through networks that we've run through policy and thought leadership, and through increasingly through investments, trying to garner and redirect investments and even encouraged some from federal and private sources. And that work all begins, you know, you can't reach that Northstar without beginning in a K 12 system with younger people because they need to be prepared with the skills that they need. From a young age, we have tended to focus, our signature approaches have tended to focus on the high school years, and particularly the upper high school years. Because all that precedes it is obviously essential, extremely important. But we find that around that time, it really begins to show how our systems are not designed to be aligned with workforce needs. And one of the ways we've approached this is how would you incorporate early college and career experiences as a systematic part of what high schools do and what young people experience in high schools through kind of dove initiatives known as early college high schools dual enrollment, you may have heard of work based learning experiences, because we really feel like it's it's not just about at that age, preparing in the abstract for what comes next for these young adults, but really trying to get them some momentum and experience in what comes next and helping them to build a sense of identity, self efficacy around a career interest and building the social connections that they need to be successful. So at a high level kind of characterizes our work at K 12.

Chad Bolser: 3:43

That's a really impressive Northstar, by the way, that's awesome and awesome to hear. And one of the really cool things about this podcast and hearing from leaders of school districts from around the country is folks are really trying to embrace some of this, but how have you seen districts prioritize workforce development now, maybe then in recent years?

Joel Vargas: 4:05

Yeah, it's a great question. We're definitely seeing and imagining they're paying. It's not universal. But I think generally speaking, there's more attention paid to the good research around career and technical education,

Chad Bolser: 4:15

Sara, I'll follow up on this. And I know, jump particularly with regard to using those experiences, combining them with college credit opportunities to create what we call college and career pathways that connect with the workforce needs and often that entails you know, working with employers in a community in a region to have them advise on the skills that they'll be looking for from workers and graduates from the schools and colleges. So I would say it's think it's fair to say that as a growing movement, we have a long way to go to actually systematically measuring like how big this is getting, which is one of our challenges, and one of our priorities at JFF have to get our arms around that but I think it's safe to say Chad, that it is growing in part also because there are states that have started to build policies financing that incentivize districts to focus more on workforce needs. So there are states like Texas and Colorado and Idaho that have created incentives for institutions. And for students to actually dip into like a training account, if you will, they call them they have different brand names for them, but use that to pay for workforce training college courses that align with a career interests and to reward the districts that send them for having evidence that students have experienced that kind of programming. So again, it's not universal, but we see kind of some slow growth and momentum in that area. I think another example would be Ohio recently renamed its Department of Education to the Department of Education and Workforce. I mean, that's a pretty clear signal to districts about what their focus ought to be. And then also trying to engineer the state support to make sure there's more alignment between education and workforce. So he's just saying like, as hardened as we are, by those developments, it's still hard for districts and for the partners to kind of dedicate the resources and build the capacity that they need to develop the partnerships that are necessary, like you can't do the workforce development. And least in our view, you know, in terms of incorporating those college and career experiences, you need partners to do that. Well, and especially, you know, community colleges, business partners, who can work with the school districts to provide these kinds of experiences build these pathways. So often, we tend to work through regional partnerships, we think that's ahead a little bit. But do you see Joel, we're in the state of the way to go in terms of the vehicles for these approaches of which you know, you need school districts are, are, of course, essential. There is an essential part of that those constellation of partnerships. So, anyway, long, complicated answer to say, Indiana, we see a lot of that movement. But I think one of the yes, it's growing, we need to do things to kind of hasten that growth. disconnects that we've had is this understanding from a parent and student level. So as you're talking about these policies, and the shift that's going on in a few places, have you seen work that's been effective in how to really transmit this to the student and parent that now have access to some of these this shift in policy? Have you seen any effectiveness in that area?

Joel Vargas: 7:37

Oh, that is a really tough question. I think, again, we have a long way to go. We have seen this and a career development focus in technical platforms that guidance counselors use, I won't name the brands, because I don't manage any, but there's really well known, you know, I think they have the developers of content of those platforms have understood the importance of getting information to the adult to influence young people, you know, I will name like the College Board, we developed a partnership with them to advise them on their big future advising platform. So I will, because I think that they've done a terrific job. And you know, when you think about college board in that brand, I mean, for them to sort of say we really have to think of that in the context of careers, you know, including kind of even widening the perspective on different post secondary options. That's also I think, a positive development. But again, I think there's a long way to go especially is despite what I said earlier about states sort of signaling workforce career development as being a prime objective, we have a lot of policies that have simply sort of said, what you ought to be doing is preparing for college. Right, and success equals college enrollment. And a lot of districts are kind of measured by that outcome. So you know, I think in part, I was party to that sort of encouraging that direction, because I think we had back in the day, a lot of different tracking systems where we weren't pointing students and guiding them to the best available options, but the economy has changed a lot. And there are a lot of good options that most of which includes some kind of post secondary education. But our systems have, and policies have a long way to go to helping guidance counselors, teachers, parents, not to mention young people to understand how to think about those options.

Sarah Williamson: 9:28

Yeah, and you know, what's interesting about these programs is when you think about setting kids up for the workforce and giving them experience one component that's so important is that I don't want to say emotional support but that mentorship on okay, you're in the adult world. Let's talk about what happened that and your internship yesterday, right your workforce opportunity and really coaching them through a lot of these experiences to prepare them for the future because I think it's a big leap from school work, and then that's why those partnerships like you mentioned are so important between that Parents, the organization's and the school and just providing that support. I don't really have a question around that. I just think that's an important component when we're thinking about these programs. How do we guide students? Because easily, they could say, oh, that was hard fail. But they need that guidance and coaching along the

Joel Vargas: 10:16

Totally agree. Sarah, I know you didn't have a way. question about this comment on your comment, which is to agree and echo mean, it's in part why we have advocated for these early college, early career work based learning approaches, because you kind of have to use the education, technical term, you kind of scaffold right to support that young people receive because high schools do see it as their job to like really mentor young people, and why not mentor them through these very authentic experiences about what comes next, you know, in the best of all possible worlds. That's what's happening and what these kinds of experiential learning opportunities encourage.

Sarah Williamson: 10:52

Right, exactly. So one thing I continue to hear about is the big blur. And I think that JFF is responsible for creating this term. Is that right? Was that you Joel? Was that you?

Joel Vargas: 11:04

Along with some colleagues, yes. Very responsible

Sarah Williamson: 11:08

I'm a PR person. So I love a big anchoring statement or word. This is awesome. So will you tell us about what this means and the impact it's having on student success in transition Post Graduation?

Joel Vargas: 13:04

Yeah, appreciate the question. I mean, first of all, let me say that it was inspired. The vision was inspired by a lot of the kinds of programs and schools and strategies, some of which we've just talked about, right, dual enrollment, early college work based learning that we've promoted and supported around the country. And then so part of the big blur is really, a grows out of a bit of a lament about how slowly those strategies are growing and the need to sort of say, Hey, why aren't we providing this for everyone? And then and the answer is, because the systems are not designed that way, like these programs exist to like, provide patches over potholes that we have in our systems and silos, right? And to which, like, there, it creates all these cracks into which like, a lot of students fall through, unfortunately. So we started asking, like, Okay, well, what, what would that mean, then, to design systems that actually promote these experiences for everyone. So we mean, we have an economy for one that we know, you're going to be successful if you get some kind of post secondary training or education, right? Including those which allow you to get a BA if you want to keep going in your education. So what would that look like? And you know, the other thing I would add is, we have a system that has for too long sort of said, the education to career trajectory means that you go through this many years of schooling, then you pay for your college for four years, right? And then you go to go off to a career, right, like magic, magical thinking. And well, we know a lot of people, first of all, they don't find their way to post secondary education, even those who are admitted, like don't show up, because it's summer melt. And all like the bureaucratic things. They have to do FAFSA form. So let's not even talk about that right now. That's kind of a mess, right? And then we don't talk about how many students flamed out of college who start because they just they weren't ready or it wasn't for them, whatever reason, the college wasn't designed to support them, and then a lot come out. And they're underemployed. And they don't necessarily know like, this isn't what I wanted to do. I majored in this, but I don't have a connection to a career. So in part, we were sort of solving that. And that's I mentioned, young people have to start working earlier, out of necessity. And our systems don't support, like learning and working at the same time. So that's always said, what we need to do is blur all the systems like, we need to create one, like, let's think about the needs of older adolescents and young adults like ages 16 through 20. Roughly, why don't we design the systems the way we do where they have to make a big leap? Just to what we were talking about Sarah. It's like all of a sudden, at the end of grade 12, you're on your own right good luck, right? Because that's a huge leap. So we said, developmental needs are not much different than a first year community college students. So why don't we design something that would be grades 11 through 14, enable students to get a post secondary credential, no cost to them, if that's what the economy requires, let's make that the new high school diploma, if you will, let's make sure that results in a credential that has value in the labor market because these pathways would be designed or the institutions or the learning environments, whatever you think of these as would be co designed with employers, they would automatically embed work based learning as a part of the student's education experience that including those that are paid, right so that they can be working and learning at the same time. So that was sort of the big idea. And then the the other thing is, it's really you ask a question about what results are we getting? thing. And they kind of like the funny thing about this at the moment is although I do see the emergence of some models, I could argue there are some programs that are exhibiting these features. But really the point was, what would it look like to design governance systems financing systems accountability? What would it mean to train instructors and qualify them to teach in the zone 11 through 14, that would be a much different construct of systems than we have right now that really separate K 12 College workforce. So that's what the big blur is about.

Sarah Williamson: 17:20

Love it and making systemic change is not easy. So obviously, it is hard. It's going to take a while to see the results. I hear you.

Joel Vargas: 17:28

Oh, no. Well, there are, you know, the funny thing about this is there are some states that have actually, I mean, Colorado had a big blur task force that was not named, but they started to nickname at that, because, in part, they had a lot of these kinds of programs. And they said, how would we systematize funding for these because they're all trying to do the same thing. So why don't we you know, how do we use these to leverage more of a big blur system. And then you have states even though they wouldn't call it big blur, have increasingly have incentives for high schools and colleges, to serve each other students and to hit outcomes that would be valued in the workforce, though, to me, that's like big blur by another name. I won't go into the weeds on that. But I would say there's real activity happening. It's just Yeah. But as you said, it's going to be slow, because it's seismic shifts we're talking about.

Sarah Williamson: 18:20

Right. Exactly.

Chad Bolser: 18:21

Yeah. So I know, for the listening audience, they cannot see. But you probably could see tears rolling down my eyes as you speak, the community college language on the big blur. So I know that wasn't apparent for those just listening in. But love it for sure. Have you seen kind of going in in a little bit of what you touched on before? Have you seen an increase in the public private partnerships when it comes to workforce development? And how do you think this will continue to be a priority?

Joel Vargas: 18:51

Yeah, great question, Chad. Yes, it's kind of fitting a theme of this conversation, I've seen a lot more than there used to be, and there needs to be a lot more in part through these frame of the big blur, or whatever you want to call it. Right. But I guess the headline is businesses, because they see, you know, the increases in skill levels that they need and knowledge that they need of their of their workforce, they're beginning to see the writing on the wall and say, like, we have to, like kind of take the bull by the horns, all those cliches, right? Take some responsibility, like how do we contribute to a system that helps education systems, you know, work with us, so that their graduates are ready to come into good jobs that we have. So I'm the same, I mean, we've worked with some of them. So that full transparency, these are the ones that come to mind. I mean, Google has created certificate and programming, you know, that will allow and enable people who complete those to get a good job in at Google or in IT, you know, other IT companies, IBM has actually invested in the neurally college model over the years called P TECH, which enables students to get associate's degrees in IT, data analytics, etc, increasingly other areas around the country. So it started in early college with like a real explicit workforce development focus. They've also invested in skills build, which is their own certification program and working with community colleges, both Google and IBM. So to your question, or partnership, they early on. So I like we actually, where are most of the future workers that we want to reach? They're there. Right. And so let's work in partnership with with those institutions, Caterpillar, you know, they sort of again, like P TECH, I mean, they're asking, how do we create pathways that began in high school. So there are other companies as well, those are just ones shout out to partners with whom we work, again, to be transparent. They're doing great things. I think we'll continue to see innovation models in this area are supporting a lot of those efforts. Again, I go back to I think what's tough is how do you build a system where the public and private systems have the capacity to connect and build scalable strategies, they often rely have to rely because it's not their business model. They're like, oh, we need someone who will work with high schools, or, you know, work with community colleges. Sometimes they do. It's rare, but typically, that's not their go to place. It's not and small and medium sized businesses, which constitute a huge segment of the employers in the country don't have that capacity. Right. So they're often relying on like, intermediary organizations. JFF kind of an example that a national scale, but there are local and state level intermediaries that helped broker the relationships that are needed for these partnerships. It's hard those are you know, oftentimes, privately funded themselves there seeking foundation funding. They have some public funding. But it's not entirely we haven't cracked the nut on how to make that systematized or scalable yet. So I see that as a core challenge and opportunity. That said, there's a lot of interest. So I think there's a lot more opportunity than challenge to treat those flip sides if you're weighing them.

Sarah Williamson: 22:04

Yeah. Well, you just touched all on funding. How are districts thinking about this when they're starting off these projects? you kind of just shared that but have you seen any successful funding strategies for districts partnerships? Talk more about that?

Joel Vargas: 22:19

Yeah. I mean, there is I think, where there's a will, Sarah, there is a way is that so what I would say here, so there are certainly you will see some incentives and proposals coming out of federal and state government. So state of California invested just invested half a billion dollars in Golden State pathways. That is a, you know that is the spur these regional partnerships that include districts, right to create these kinds of experiences for young people, that actually is a follow on to an earlier half a billion dollar investment that they made in 2015. So there's money out there. I mean, California is huge, right. But I could name some other states that have had these kinds of initiatives. Those are meant to like jumpstart visibility, like, you know, encouraging districts like, Hey, have you heard of this grant program, let's try making sure we tried to do that. But there is nothing stopping. And in fact, it will stop unless districts invest core resources that they have per pupil funding sources of you know, including from the federal government, Elementary and Secondary Education Act, or I guess, the latest one, it's been a while, right. But as Every Student Succeeds Act, it encourages this activity, there is nothing stopping. In fact, if you look probably deep in the bowels, and remember all the regulatory encouragement, but to send signals like you don't have to use it this way. But you can use these funds, including the SR funds that which districts have had a hard time spending, right, they can use the stimulus funds that came from COVID to support this kind of activity. So we see like, and but the ones that do it, have it as part of their mission. It's not something that they're going to do because of the money, but it's something that they can use the money to do to an Activision they already have with their communities and partners.

Chad Bolser: 24:14

Now, Joel, we can't let you out of the interview without asking about AI. What are your thoughts on how we can prepare students for a world where technology may look very different in a few years? And how do you feel about AI degrees that are popping up at universities and community colleges across the country?

Joel Vargas: 24:34

So I can't escape without talking about AI? I guess that's fair enough. We have a center on AI by the way at JFF. So I'd encourage your listeners to take a look at that. From the from the view of education, I would say, you

Sarah Williamson: 24:46

Yeah, shout out to America succeeds in Tim know, the courses sound like a great idea, man, it's hard to comment on those unless you see the necessity of the curriculum. And what the, what the focus is, I would say what we think about most in relation to AI is, and it was happening already, right. But as soon as chat GPT came out last year, everybody really opened their eyes, right? It's going to like a lot of our technological advances over the years, this one will be a step change, I think that would safe to say, it will contribute to an economy where people are changing jobs more frequently throughout their lives, because jobs are going to be created and destroyed with more frequency, it's just going to the economy's gonna be more dynamic, right? We don't know, in some ways people I love when I say Jobs for the Future, they say what are the jobs of the future? And also, how do you know what they are? They're going to change? And the answer is, you know, that's a wise question, even though it's kind of a little bit of a ribbing. It's, it's true. So that puts the onus on education systems to do something that they have not been very good at today, which is to be agile, to encourage continuous learning, including in the workplace, right? So how do we do a big blur as a part of this, but you get my drift, we can't create like, and be wedded to the system we have where it's like you do, learn, learn, learn, learn for years, work, work, work for years, kind of taper off at the end and you get a big retirement, right? That's just not the way it's going to work anymore. People are going to have to reskill get generalizable skills that they can transfer to other contexts be good problem solvers, and then also kind of have the human and durable skills as a term of art these days, you know, that can complement what AI can't do, right, which is the social socio emotional kind of intelligence and interactions that are going to be you know, until they invent the AI don't quote me, that could happen, right? But I don't think in the foreseeable future that computers can do that, like humans can So we have to figure out and we have to build something much different than to live up to that challenge. Taylor. He's gonna be durable skills.

Joel Vargas: 26:55

Great. Terrific. Yes. Yeah, they have a great framework around that.

Sarah Williamson: 26:59

They do. Okay. Well, that's super helpful. I would be curious. This podcast was ultimately created to help elevate thought leaders in education. And you are clearly one of those. How are you sharing all your success stories across the broader education community? I did some research and I can see where you're doing that. But tell us tell us more?

Joel Vargas: 27:17

Well, because you're inviting me I will do the shameless acts of self promotion, as well. Please, people do visit our website, www.jff.org Take a look there. We are just given how we do our work and try to promote scale and transformation. We run a lot of networks of workforce development boards, cross sector networks of colleges, k 12, employers, all the things that I mentioned one of the prime examples of that it's not the only one. But I think most apropos of this conversation, our Pathways to Prosperity network just celebrated 10 years we've worked with oh, well over 30 communities over the last 10 years states and regions to advance these kinds of college and career pathways. Folks should take a look at that. And then if you if folks don't know about it, take a look. It's JFF's, the largest convening, we will be holding it in DC this year. It's called Horizons. And the tagline is the Power of Us. Because we really think we need the power of us in this day and age in frankly, in this political climate to get some of these things done. So we're going to have an explicit focus on policy, I would take have folks take a look at that it is a unique convening of all these different sectors we've been talking about, including I think you would hear a lot about public private partnerships and our work in K 12. And other parts of the workforce development spheres.

Sarah Williamson: 28:46

Also Maria Flynn has a column in Forbes, which is pretty impressive. And it's a great poem.

Joel Vargas: 28:51

Thanks for saving me on that one. Sarah. Column. Yes.

Sarah Williamson: 28:56

Well, I mean, I definitely was impressed. That's very impressive. So you're welcome.

Chad Bolser: 29:04

So, Joel, what are you most hopeful about for the future of workforce development?

Joel Vargas: 29:12

I think I mentioned that earlier chat. And it's just I think it's getting more attention now. You know, and at a leadership level governors care about this a lot, right? Because their state of their economies, it depends on skilled workforce. So I think employers, as we talked about a little earlier are as again, it's sort of, they see the need, it's more a matter of like, how do I do it? Right? At a why, also, like, think about hiring based on skills, and not just a traditional degrees, like, especially if I don't need, you don't if those are just signals, but they're imperfect? Like why do we keep jacking this up to sort of say, everybody needs to be a like, we're really, how do we think in ways that get more people equitably into good jobs? I think people are talking more about the difference between a job and good jobs. Right, we've and what that looks like we have an employer mobilization practice that focuses on impact employers that I encourage people to take a look at. And there are a lot of companies that sort of are very focused on how do I retain a diversified workforce, right, then as a string, so they're looking for ways to do it. I think what I'm hopeful about is they see the need for it. And so I'm hoping we can, along with other partners in the field, help them to see a path and not to mention educators, which we've spent most of the time talking about. They need tools, resources, strategies for doing that, and connecting with other parts of the workforce ecosystem.

Sarah Williamson: 30:44

This has been so fantastic. Thank you so much for joining us, Joel. Would you mind sharing where people can reach out to you directly if you're comfortable with that?

Joel Vargas: 30:53

Sure. Yeah. The best way is my email jvargas@jff.org

Sarah Williamson: 31:02

Fantastic. Well, thank you so much. I think this is going to be really helpful episode for a lot of people. So keep up the good work. Appreciate it.

Joel Vargas: 31:10

Thank you, Chad. Thanks.

Chad Bolser: 31:13

Thanks for joining us for the Build Momentum podcast today. If you enjoyed listening, we would love to hear your feedback, and would be grateful if you would leave us a review.

Sarah Williamson: 31:23

This helps us to share these powerful stories with even more people. If you liked what you heard, and we would be honored if you could share this episode with someone in your network. We look forward to seeing you next time on build momentum.